Do you think that if France and the UK attacked Germany in the west in 1939, and captured Berlin in early 1940, would they keep going to Moscow???
Understandably the allies didn't declare on war on the USSR in 1939, but if they won an easy victory over the Nazi's in 1939 do you think public opinion and the USSR's obvious weakness in Finland would allow them to push onto Moscow.
I can't see Stalin withdrawing his troops from Poland once the allies defeat Germany he would be forced to fight.
Post by generalpl4gue on Oct 4, 2019 23:41:53 GMT -5
WOW. A great discussion. There are some historians that said that all allies' grants to 3rd Reich was willing that they would have beaten up Soviets. Neville Chamberlain gave Duchies, Danzig and West Prussen to Hitler, and didn't stop their rush to war. France, in the same way, is guilty. They have omitted to enforce Versailles treat just to use Nationalsozialismus to reduce the socialist expansion in Europe, that was growing since the 1929 crack. If 3rd Reich was beated until 1939, I think that France and U.K would have brought war to soviets, continuing to stop the socialist propaganda and expansionism in Europe. And probably, with U.K, France and Germany, Soviet would have been defeated.
Post by generalpl4gue on Oct 5, 2019 16:25:50 GMT -5
Yes. With a Democratic restoration in Germany, Allies would gained an extraordinary military power. Now I will ask you another thing. If German was rapidly beaten, should Japan stay against Allies ? I really trust that Japan and Germany, in a coordinated assault , could have beaten Soviets until 1945. Without Pearl harbor attack, it would have occured earlier. But without its major allie, Japan would be really weakened. What do you think ?
After watching the Allies crush Germany within months I don't think the Japanese would be messing with the Allies.
It was the inherent weakness of France, the UK, and the Netherlands, that encouraged their offenses in the Pacific.
Yes, indeed. Allies focused their war efforts to struggle Germany. It represented a total vacum of power in the Pacific, that opened space to Japan expansionism. In a situation that Allies defeated Germany early, Japan would be really afraid to do their expansions. Axes was like a pack of wolves: They atacked in group, to avoid acurate massive assaults. What do you think, Tomatolake, about the other parties in the war? Italy, Romenia, Brazil ( It has a really interesting story behind it joining in the allies). I think we can go deep in it. It has being really interesting.
Italy would be like Argentina lots of top Nazi's living there in exile, avoiding extradition treaties.
The top Nazi's would be jailed maybe even executed for crimes committed in Poland but the bulk of the Wehrmacht would remain intact, and most importantly Mansfield would still be a general, and not constrained by Hitler. (Enough to make me feel sorry for Stalin, almost)
I assume that Mussolini would not partake in any more wars of aggression after watching Germany collapse.
Romania/Bulgaria/Finland and maybe even Turkey and Italy would join in the march on Moscow
This would also mean no Israel, a delayed rocket/satellite/moon landing project.
India would get it's independence much later say in the 60's and Africa would decolonize in the 80's - 90's.
The UK would join the US in blockading and sanctioning Japan for their actions in China. We may even see a UK equivalent of the Flying Tigers (Flying Lions?) UK pilots fighting against the Japanese in China.
I know nothing about Brazil's involvement in WWII but I assume that with a quick allied victory over the Nazi's and a march on Moscow, they wouldn't join in against the Nazi's and may declare war on the USSR very late in the game (like Turkey did) or declare war and send naval/air units but not commit many/any ground divisions until the offensive ends.
Post by generalpl4gue on Oct 5, 2019 23:50:58 GMT -5
About Brazil. With a rush victory over Hitler, Brazil would had some industrial problems. During WWII, Brazil made a "two-parties game". German and U.S.A was offering tech sharing and facilitated loans to war industry. USA gave us the best option, and We went to the war at the Allies side. Without this "competition", Brazil would have stayed neutral and haven't received a military boost. Brazilian military power probably would be shorter than Argentina, what would have criated a lot of instability in South America. Probably Brazil would joined Allies to combat Soviets in the late game, as you said, gathering some military powers to this struggle in SOuth America, fighting Comminterns in South America but probably sending to Europe just a small expedictionary force. Probably Argentina would have relations with Soviets, due to its populist government, and It probably aggravate tensions with Brazil.